About freedom of speech

For the forum
21

Misunderstandings of this kind will always arise on forums through a keyboard. I believe that if we were sitting around a table with souvlaki and wine, the matter would have been resolved within a few minutes because we would have agreed that we simply disagree.

What saddens me is that people are leaving a group whose members share a common purpose: music. There is certainly still bitterness on both sides. On the other hand, there are also the moderators, who may sometimes find themselves in the difficult position of having to make a decision that will upset some people. I believe that, from a certain point onwards, the discussion had indeed gone off the rails and there was no turning back.

I am very sorry about the whole situation that has arisen.

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22

Indeed, that impression can be given. But look at it the other way:

Whatever anyone says, it can always potentially provoke some responses and further discussion. But sometimes a topic gets locked. This is предусмотрed for; it is legitimate to do so (in moderation, of course, but I don’t think the limit has ever been exceeded here over many years, if ever).

You’re the moderator. You lock the topic. Aren’t you going to say why? Aren’t you going to give an opinion? Inevitably, it is the last opinion to be heard, at least within that particular topic (because here we are, showing that the exchange of views can continue in another topic). But what else can you do?

I don’t see what else Christos could have done, other than either lock it in such an authoritarian way without discussion, or, conversely, de facto abolish the option of locking certain topics.

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23

If I had imagined we would end up here, I might not have written anything about Mazонakis’s artistic merit. I don’t feel guilty, nor am I apologising, but it’s a shame that Panos is leaving, especially under these circumstances.

Those of us left behind — members, visitors, former members and moderators — let’s each do whatever we can to make things better for ourselves and the community.

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24

For the community’s information, the member Teliso requested that their identity be anonymised.

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25

I had left the forum for many years, for the reasons Panos described so accurately above. In fact, I had to create a new profile, as I can no longer recover my original one, under the name Telemaxos, because I have forgotten the login details.

I found my way back to this place because of a classified ad. I have no illusions that anything substantial is going to change, but I would like to highlight a phrase of Panos’s that I consider particularly apt: when the forum „catches fire“, the moderators and the admin team rush to put out the fire, instead of restraining or removing the arsonists.

If someone cannot restrain themselves or express themselves with basic politeness and respect, then they simply do not need to reply. It is as simple as that.

Let us speak plainly and call things by their name: Nikos Sarigiannis and Nikos Politis are largely responsible for the desolation of this place. They have occupied the community’s attention more than any other members because of the constant tensions and problems they create. Of course, some of the decline in activity is also due to people moving to social media. But when someone visits the forum to ask a simple question and receives aggressive or dismissive replies, neither Facebook nor Instagram is to blame.

I wonder, for example, why Panos was removed from the moderation team, while not even a temporary account suspension was imposed when Mr Sarigiannis was making unfounded accusations and attacks against instrument makers, Spyros Goumas, or even rebetiko festivals. The relevant posts are still there and have not been deleted.

I remember the days when people such as Tatasopoulos, Mystakidis, Fronimopoulos, Spourdalakis and so many others took part in the forum. Today, we see discussions that were started five years ago being revived, with the same few remaining users posting in them.

Dear Christos, the issue is neither the death of Mazonakis nor any other pretext. The real problem is the dismissive behaviour, personal attacks and mudslinging, towards which the forum has shown unprecedented tolerance when it comes to certain members.

I urge you to consider whether this situation is consistent with the spirit and values the community is supposed to uphold, and whether maintaining a healthy climate for discussion is ultimately a genuine priority for the forum.

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26

Let me add Vangelis Boudounis, the classical soloist, as well. Yesterday the Forum brought a topic back up and, lo and behold:

(as much as I want to show good faith, the facts discourage me.)

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27

Babis, share your own personal view on this matter too, so that we have a range of perspectives and — I’m sure of it — there will be a constructive discussion.

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My friend “Telemaxos4” (who—as I can see—shares Panos’s views), do you also approve of replies such as “…written queer crap…” and “I couldn’t give a damn whether you knew him or not… nobody asked you…”, and do you think that this kind of language is consistent with what you yourself invoke as “the spirit and values that a community ought to uphold” and that “help maintain a healthy climate for discussion”?
In your opinion, isn’t this very language clearly inflammatory, quite apart from being insulting?

Babis said earlier, more or less, “Why did I ever open my mouth about Mazonakis?”… Is it healthy to censor ourselves so that someone else’s opinion won’t be offended?
Is this approach freedom of speech, or the silencing of a different opinion?

The targeting of Nikos Politis—to whom this insulting and inflammatory reply was directed in the discussion about Mazonakis—is unacceptable and completely unjust: he is one of the few people who contributes to almost every discussion with his knowledge, experience and expertise, and makes a decisive contribution to maintaining this online community…

And the other Nikos, Sarigiannis: his contribution is also invaluable, and we ought to acknowledge that he has made a sincere effort to restrain himself.
After all, he has never resorted to expressions and characterisations like the ones we are discussing.

I’m afraid I’m seeing a great deal of targeting of the forum members who are fighting to preserve this community!

When Panos said that there were “…lengthy replies devoid of meaning…”, which member was he referring to?

Why, folks?

Why should we have to read opinions such as “…they don’t have young people in front of them to pass on the cannibalism they were taught…” Are lessons in cannibalism being taught on the forum? Is there fascist and repulsive behaviour? Strong words!

Do we love this place?
Do we appreciate the bitterness felt by those who read such opinions—people who are precisely the ones providing the material and financial support for this online platform so that we can all write whatever we like?

Let’s leave all this behind us and move on to constructive discussions, each of us to the best of our ability.

After all, we are united by the same passion: our rebetiko / laïko music.

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29

Eleni, with all due respect, I also agreed with something Panos said, and that absolutely does not mean that anyone agrees with the characterisations! And Tilemachos is only expressing an opinion, after all. As a member, I’ve never had a personal problem with anyone — I mean a genuinely personal one. If I think some replies are long-winded and meaningless, for example, that’s not a bad thing, mate! Obsessive criticism is bad, and we all know it. But criticism in general is a good thing. There have certainly been some major mistakes here too. For me, the most telling example was when Paouris came under fire from everyone, myself included to some extent, and from the moderators, while other artists got off scot-free. I came to see that as very unfair to Paouris, in hindsight. What’s done is done… Obviously, if someone can’t stand Mr Nikos’s manner, they have every right to say so! The same goes for Liga Rosa: although I’ve disagreed with his opinions many times, I personally realise that neither of the two mentioned above is a bad person — they just have bad moments, like I do. Hell, we’ve all been guilty of criticising others unfairly, even in our own minds. If Tilemachos, Babis or anyone else thinks certain attitudes are wrong, they’re perfectly entitled to say so! There’s no need to put out fires here. Everyone can process what they hear for themselves. Neither Liga, nor I, nor Tilemachos, for example, have any reason to hate the forum! Actually, the whole thread gives the impression that deep down, we all want what’s best. That’s how I see it.

30

As for Panos’s expressions, I personally read them in the context of a more general sense of indignation. Nevertheless, I consider his comments to have been clearly targeted, and I am not trying to justify them.

However, there are still posts by Mr Saryngianis in which he claims that a well-known instrument maker has „taken money from his clients“. If that particular professional decides to take legal action tomorrow, what will we say? That he is in the wrong? Why does everyone want to do their bit and play the role of the „big shot“?

My question is this: does the fact that Mr Saryngianis writes non-stop from morning till night, regardless of the content, automatically give him the right to write whatever he wants? From time to time, we see an apology, thanks to the moderation team and, shortly afterwards, a repetition of the same behaviour.

I think the result is clear to everyone. The community has been deserted. And ultimately, however much Mr Saryngianis loves this community, many of us love it just as much, yet now choose not to participate because of this situation.

Panos said two harsh things and was immediately removed. At the same time, posts by Saryngianis that smear professionals, bitter comments and petty remarks about great musicians or initiatives for festivals and events remain published. It is this different treatment that creates the problem.

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31

So, just to make sure I understand, are two people the reason that people have left the forum?

Did Tatasopoulos—or Mystakidis and the others—leave the forum because of Politis and Sarigiannis?

I don’t think this method leads us to a logical conclusion.

Conflicts arising from differing opinions happen very often. They don’t usually lead to people leaving. This whole story reminds me of the saying, “We found a priest, so let’s bury a dozen people.”

I also believe that the incidents described involving instrument makers, professionals, etc. have been resolved. What exactly—and whom—does bringing them back to the surface serve?

Telemachus, by your own admission, “I had abandoned the forum for many years”, and after returning because of an advert, you began accusing specific members of being “largely responsible for the desertion of this place”.

So, essentially, you’re telling us that you saw the light, came in, and since you were here, decided to have your say as well.

Something about this process doesn’t seem logical to me. When I leave a place, even if I happen to drop by for whatever reason, I don’t get involved in what goes on there, because it simply no longer represents me.

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32

Good morning, everyone,

First of all, let me reiterate the following to avoid any misunderstandings:

Panos was stripped of his moderator status for one reason and one reason only. When someone becomes a moderator, they agree to abide by certain basic rules.

  1. They will set an example for the community
  2. They will always try to maintain a certain balance so that the standard of discussion is preserved.

Panos, through the way he expressed himself, failed to adhere to those two points — and it was not the first time — so unfortunately, his role as a moderator became incompatible with the way he conducted himself in the discussion.

His decision to anonymise his account was entirely his own. Although it did not come as a surprise to me, this decision saddens me, as I believe it saddens the community as a whole.

There was no specific disagreement between us; I continue to appreciate him as a person and respect his views, but I have always been, and remain, unequivocal about the two rules outlined above.

Also, to avoid any misunderstanding, some of you here mentioned that although I was harsh with Panos, I was never equally harsh with @liga_rosa. Two points:

  1. First, @liga_rosa was never a moderator, so there was no moderator status to remove from him. It goes without saying that I will be more demanding of a moderator than of a forum member.
  2. I have pointed out Nikos’s inappropriate behaviour to him personally and publicly on numerous occasions. Particularly with regard to issues concerning instrument makers.

First, allow me to give you some background on how I try to manage the forum and how I generally think about online communities. Since I took over the active management of the forum in 2018, I have constantly been balancing two quite different approaches. Both have merit, and quite often it is not entirely clear to me which one is right.

The first is that online communities should have complete freedom of speech. As long as the discussion is conducted with mutual respect between members, every opinion or statement should be able to be expressed freely. If someone disagrees with that view, they are likewise free to go into the topic and write their own opinion, explaining why they believe their position is the correct one. According to this approach, the moderator’s role is only to maintain the conditions of mutual respect between members during the discussion, not to intervene in its actual flow. The problem here, however, is that an obvious imbalance arises.

Let me give an example:

Suppose a member uploads their dissertation to the forum. It is a major personal undertaking that has taken them time and energy, and of which they themselves are proud. Naturally, they upload their work to invite criticism and spark discussion. The first reply they receive is: The title caught my interest, but as soon as I read that it mentioned X topic in the first paragraph, I stopped reading; I was genuinely disappointed. I don’t think anyone should mention this topic in their dissertation.

What is the problem with this message? The fact that although this person is free to stop reading at that point, they publicly judge an entire dissertation based on three words they read in the first paragraph. Suddenly, an entire discussion develops around those three words, moves away from the original topic, and the statement that the dissertation was disappointing remains publicly on the forum for ever. If the author wants to refute this view, they will have to respond with a lengthy text and spend extra hours and energy. By contrast, the person who judged the work from its first paragraph spent only five minutes reading that paragraph, giving up and writing three lines about how disappointed it made them and how no one should bother reading the dissertation. Obviously, if I were its author, after a certain point I would not want to write on the forum again, even though I might well have had many interesting things to say.

The imbalance, then, lies in the following: writing that something is not worthwhile, is wrong or has a problem often costs far less time and energy than refuting that view. And so online communities, from forums to Facebook and Twitter, are most often filled with negative comments, which very rarely receive any response. The difference with other communities, however, is that on a forum the written word remains, and someone searching for the dissertation in the example above will see that first negative comment before anything else, without reading the rest of the discussion. The impression has already been made.

It is easy enough to make the connection: if it is not a dissertation, it could be online bouzouki videos or lessons. If it is not lessons, it could be bouzoukis made by an instrument maker. Or anything else.

Our initial idea for dealing with this was to say that the opinions expressed must be substantiated. But who decides that? What “committee” decides whether an opinion is sufficiently substantiated? Is the person making that judgement always right? In any case, this is where restrictions on freedom of speech suddenly appear. You cannot write whatever you want. If the moderation team decides that something is not sufficiently substantiated, then you are not free to say whatever you want. And in practice, this makes the approach impossible to implement — except in truly blatant cases.

And that is where the second approach comes in: rather than there being complete freedom of speech, the role of moderation is to determine what may and may not be written on the forum. For example, the moderation team might decide that whether or not a book about rebetiko contains typographical errors is not of interest to the forum. Does that limit the members’ freedom of speech? In a way, yes. The problem is that this decision comes from a central body, the moderation team, and certainly not all members will agree with it. In a way, it is as our friend Teliso wrote: “fascist”.

So which approach is the right one? How should the moderation team behave? And to make this even more practical: The topic is titled “About freedom of speech”, but some of you here are asking us to take it away from two forum members. How do you think the moderators should respond to this request?

I will conclude by saying that I want to hear your views. The members’ concerns are my concerns too, and I want to make the forum better. We are not here to discuss only the easy things, but the difficult ones as well. Thank you all for taking part in this discussion.

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33

To avoid any misunderstandings, I don’t know whether I’m considered one of the “some” :upside_down_face:; I’m not asking for anything of the sort.

I’m simply pointing out, scripta manent after all, that one particular member has spewed toxicity by the kilo, and because they did so surgically and “within the rules”, there were no repercussions, only warnings.

And to be fair, I acknowledge that @liga_rosa seems more careful than before, and good on him (hopefully this will last until the next time).

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34

Isn’t the issue of unfair damage to professionals’ reputations already addressed by the laws of the land? Wouldn’t that be enough to keep criticism (and defence, too) within the bounds of accuracy and care? And then there are the “radioactive” issues (e.g. political discussions, the need to bring our legislation into line with British law on dangerous “dogs” ΟΘΝΤΚ).

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I’m still wondering what those written examples of faggotry were that have now been removed.

Indeed, where does that come from? If I had reached Mystakidis’s level as a player and professionally, I would want to spend my limited free time with family and friends rather than writing on the rebetiko forum, however ideal the forum’s situation might be.

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36

Indeed, liga, as Babis has mentioned lately, has been more careful. And I’ll give him that. But Politis was also brought into the picture here. Politis, one of the forum’s oldest members, has always had the same uncompromising writing style, but it has never caused an issue. Always courteous, with immense knowledge. I’ve disagreed with him many times, but that is healthy when it comes to the arguments being made. He may be uncompromising, but he is certainly an institution on the forum. We may not like his writing style or his opinions, but that’s as far as it goes.

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37

And here I would also like to add another factor which, in my opinion, is significant. Does anyone really believe that artists of the calibre of Mystakidis, Tatasopoulos or Goumas, and instrument makers of the calibre of Spourdalakis, would leave a forum because opposing views were expressed? Or because their work was criticised? Personally, I find this claim demeaning to them. We are talking about people—teachers—who have embarked on and forged a career that no one disputes. Attributing childish behaviour to them is, in my view, wrong.

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38

Well, Mr Nikos can really wear you down if he wants to, and I say that even though he’s become a personal soft spot of mine… Over the years, you see, I feel like I’ve come to understand him, and I always enjoy even his irony, hehe.
Nikos Sarigiannis has written so much about musicology here that we’ve learnt a bit about music too — at least those of us who are musically clueless, like me. And quite a lot, seriously… We all contribute something. As we said, likes and dislikes are only human! I also think that when Mystakidis puts up a post on Instagram and Facebook and gets thousands of reactions, it’s only logical that he doesn’t spend time on the forum. The important, research-based points have mostly already been made. Now it’s all about love, and moving on.

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39

Yes, he’s always one of the first to answer questions about instruments, technique and theory, so we do him a great disservice if we ignore all that he contributes and focus only on some of his critical interventions and so on. I believe that this is a very important contribution to the forum, even if some people drop by, ask a question and we never see them again.

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40

What a fuss, folks!

As if the forum were deserted because Sarigiannis wrote a harsh music review. Doesn’t he have the right to do that? Or because Politis said… (I can’t imagine what he could possibly have said that was so terrible). (*)

Or because some tension arose at one point and someone used the word “poustilikia”. Alright, okay, it’s not exactly polite, but tensions do arise in discussions. I’m not saying someone shouldn’t occasionally say, “Come on, everyone, rein it in a bit,” but at the same time, there should be a little trust in a group’s ability to manage itself when its members are demonstrably good discussants.

A little while ago, another bit of friction arose in a thread, and the exchanges of insults on both sides took the form of verse. Some of the poems were so good that I commented, “If this is what comes out of it, then the tension is worth it once in a while.” I don’t know how many people left the forum then (!), but I do know for certain that the exchanges did not continue indefinitely.

_____________________________

(*) There’s no need for me to start praising the contribution of Nikos S. and Nikos P. to the forum over the years; it is well known in both cases. With Sarigiannis in particular, though, I can’t help feeling that there is a tendency to single him out.

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