Η συζήτηση περιστρέφεται γύρω από το τραγούδι “Νύχτες της Σταμπούλ” του Μητσάκη, το οποίο ερμηνεύτηκε από τη Γεωργακοπούλου και τον Περπινιάδη το 1947. Στα σχόλια περιλαμβάνονται οι στίχοι του τραγουδιού, παραθέσεις συνδέσμων και εικόνων που σχετίζονται με τον δίσκο, και μια γενικότερη αναζήτηση για την πηγή και τη δημοτικότητα του κομματιού.
Η κουβέντα εξελίσσεται με μια ετυμολογική συζήτηση για την προέλευση του ονόματος “Σταμπούλ”, με αρκετές απόψεις να διατυπώνονται σχετικά με το αν προέρχεται από το ελληνικό “εις την Πόλη”, ή αν είναι προσαρμογή της τουρκικής εκδοχής “Ιστανμπούλ”. Οι συνομιλητές προβάλλουν επιχειρήματα και παραδείγματα, ανταλλάσσουν γνώσεις και παραθέτουν πηγές, προσπαθώντας να προσδιορίσουν την πιο πειστική ετυμολογία του ονόματος.
Άκουσα το “Νύχτες της Σταμπούλ” του Μητσάκη (α’ ερμηνεία: Γεωργακοπούλου) από τους Μιλάνους, αλλά μόνο την πρώτη στρόφη.
Ξέρει κάποιος τους υπόλοιπους στίχους;
Επίσης σε ποιόν δίσκο ήταν η α’ ερμηνεία;; Γιατί από εδώ δεν αντλώ και πολλές πληροφορίες.
(Αρκετά δυσεύρετο κομμάτι μου φαίνεται!)
Πολύ ωραίο τραγούδι!
Γεωργακοπούλου και Περπινιάδης μαζί, του 1947.
Οι στίχοι:
Νύχτες στην ξακουσμένη τη Σταμπούλ
βράδια που μια στιγμή δεν τα ξεχνώ
όσο κι αν ζήσω.
Πάντα γλυκιά Σταμπούλ σε νοσταλγώ
μέσα από το νου στʼ ομολογώ
δεν θα σε σβήσω.
Πώς να ξεχάσω τέτοια μεράκια
τα γραφικά σου παλιά σοκάκια
κάθε δική σου γειτονιά
δεν έχει ταίρι στο ντουνιά.
Τα ζηλεμένα τα χανουμάκια
που κατοικούνε μες στα κονάκια
γλυκιά Σταμπούλ αληθινά στο λέω
είσαι στολίδι του ντουνιά.
Η ετικέτα του δίσκου και το τραγούδι από το sealabs
http://rebetiko.sealabs.net/display.php?recid=9831 (Νύχτες της Σταμπούλ)
Οι “Νύχτες της Σταμπούλ” είχαν ανέβει στο παρελθόν. Ανεβαίνει και η άλλη πλευρά του δίσκου με το γνωστό και αγαπητό “Το καπηλειό” με την Ι.Γεωργακοπούλου και τον Γ.Μητσάκη στα φωνητικά.
I happened across this song by Bezos too.
The “Stamboul” caught my attention. Istanbul, of course. Interesting.
Stamboul came first; the euphonic i must have been added later, since the Turkish language does not allow words to begin with two consonants in succession. In my view, the word Stamboul is all that a Turkish, non-Greek-speaking ear was able to make out from the string “Konstantinoupolis”. In Turkish, it must have been written “Stambl”, with the stress falling on the b, and without an “ou” sound. This is to counter the well-known “Eis tin Polin” theory, which, of course, not even half a non-Greek-speaking Turk could ever have heard being uttered, since he would not have been present at discussions among Rhomaioi speaking to one another, referring to the City or going to the City.
I should add that there is a Greek surname, Stambolis, which of course means “a Constantinopolitan”. And I should add that my own surname, as has been proven, originated with a certain Eleavoulkos, a soldier from the period when the Franks occupied the City, who was sent to Kalamata with an army and settled there with his family, becoming known as “Liavourkos the Constantinopolitan”. Thus, when my grandfather was a small child, his family, known as the “Politiko” family, would sit on Easter Monday at the city’s official communal feast, at the “Liavourkos table”.
It seems more likely to me too. „To the City“ doesn’t convince me, although the truth is that in similar discussions other cases have also been mentioned where Greek toponyms acquired the otherwise inexplicable syllables „istan-“ at the beginning in Turkish: I remember Istanköy (= Kos), and there were one or two others, and I don’t know whether research has ultimately confirmed what seems to me like a random, arbitrary hypothesis—that it really was „εις την“ („to the“).
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I think that „Stamboul“, which is neither genuinely Turkish (Istanbul) nor, of course, Greek (the City / Constantinople), is used in Greek whenever the city is employed as a symbol of Oriental exoticism. As any other kind of symbol, or as an actual place, it will almost always be referred to by its standard Greek name or, more rarely, by its standard Turkish name.
I don’t know a thing about Kos’s history, but Istanköy means “the place (or village) of Istán”. When I enter the word into Google, it does indeed translate it as “Kos”. It doesn’t seem incomprehensible to me, given that, for specific reasons, it has been adopted as the name of the island in that particular language.
And extending the completely unrealistic idea of “Into the City” to the island of Kos does not strengthen the attempt to “Hellenise” Istanbul, at least in my view.
Ah, and one more interesting thing regarding the insertion of the euphonic i in foreign words being Turkified: I read in my dictionary:
Islav = Slav
Ispari = porgy (the fish)
Ispati = spade (the card suit)
Ispirto = spirits
Ispiyon = spy
Istatistik = statistics
Istavroz = cross
I don’t think this is a matter of Hellenisation. One way or another, no one disputes that the original source of “Istanbul” is a Greek toponym. The Turks wouldn’t suddenly have arrived in a city that already had a name (a name that was famous throughout the world, no less, and known to them centuries before the conquest), only to ignore it and replace it with a new and unrelated one.
Of course the Turks would never try to come up with a word of their own to downplay the fact that they did not build this city, but merely took it over. But being Greek-centric and assuming that Istanbul derives from “Eis tin Polin” is another matter, and clearly beside the point.
Yes, okay, the i- is euphonic and obligatory in Turkish, so there’s no need to trace it back to a Greek i- (εις την…), but that doesn’t prove anything. Foreign (non-Turkish) words that originally had ist-, isp-, etc. also begin the same way in Turkish.
It does prove something, my dear Pericles. It proves that the whole world does NOT revolve around the Greeks and their language, as far too many Greeks would like to believe… (and do believe!)
The fact that a city that had previously existed as a Greek city with a Greek name would retain the same name in Turkish too, naturally adapted to the Turkish language, is not a Greek-centric claim. Now, if there are Greek-centric circles promoting the idea that the Turks owe even the “i-” in Istanbul to us, from the Greek “εις”, and without any other argument in favour of this view, …well, I don’t believe it.
In any case, whatever someone who is as Greek-obsessed as you like claims is not automatically wrong. There may be scholarly arguments (which the Greek-obsessed person would probably ignore) that, more or less by coincidence, prove it or at least support it.
So what I was saying is that, without remembering the details, I think I’ve read arguments that make the “εις την…” theory, if not certain, at least more credible than the claims of every Greek-obsessed person who loudly proclaims it in their ignorance.
Many do believe it, though… And they can even label you anti-Greek if you insist that they’re wrong.
It would be interesting, though, if you could remember the arguments you’re referring to in your last paragraph. Personally, I have no such recollections…
Basically, that “istan-” also appears in other Greek Turkified toponyms.
I mean as a prefix, of course, not as a suffix, which is another story.
Very interesting etymological investigation here:
Marek Stachowski-Robert Woodhouse, “The etymology of İstanbul: making optimal use of the evidence”
(Studia Etymologica Cracoviensia, 2015, Volume 20, Issue 4, pp. 221–245)
How tiresome some academics are!
They write and write (just to fill the page with a multitude of references)…
He didn’t draw any conclusion. Or are we supposed to read all the references as well?
If anyone understood it, please help us.
There is also stin, from which, without the slightest doubt, Stamboul (Σταμπούλ) arose (“devil-face emoticon here, which I can’t find to add…”).
Since «Stamboul» doesn’t work in Turkish because it violates the language’s phonological rules, I suspect that it is the Greek rendering of the Turkish «Istanbul»—in other words, something like a reborrowing. Did Turks ever call it that?
