What do they want us to understand when they keep “attacking” the Ottoman Greeks?
Whether on our own or alongside conquerors (Romans, Ottomans, Germans and Italians), we remain Greeks.
Did they teach us music, perhaps?
I don’t believe the term is necessarily nationalist, nor should it automatically offend us.
If we’re talking about music by Greeks who were subjects of the Ottoman Empire, what should we call them?
More after we’ve heard the lecture
Is this what they mean by
Ottoman Greeks?
I don’t think so. They mean something more.
There was no such population, only Greeks under Turkish occupation.
In the abstract of the aforementioned lecture, Chaldaiaki refers to Kamarados as an Ottoman Greek musicologist. In another text of hers, also about Kamarados, she refers to him as Rum, i.e. a Greek-speaking Orthodox Christian from Istanbul.
https://www.academia.edu/127784296/Case_studies_of_musical_transcriptions_of_Greek_folk_music_from_the_Kamarados_Collection_of_the_Music_Library_of_Greece_Lilian_Voudouri_
Of course, Mr Spyros, your view is perfectly valid.
I don’t know how every person of Greek nationality identifies themselves, and I’m not in a position to answer on their behalf, but I interpret the title as defining a musical culture that is strictly concerned with the Hellenism of a particular region.
But let’s listen to the lecture as well.
It’s not a matter of self-identification. As if the ancient Greeks identified themselves as ancient! Personally, I take “Ottoman” to be a spatial, temporal and historical designation—not as something like a “mix or cross-pollination of Ottoman and Greek elements”.
P.S. Sorry, but I didn’t understand the time. Is 19:00 Greek time?
My dear Spyros, in 1453 there were neither Greeks nor Turks. If you had asked one of the inhabitants of Constantinople what nationality they considered themselves to be, they would have looked at you strangely, not understanding what exactly (or approximately) you meant, since the concept of the nation and nationality did not exist. The Eastern Roman Empire did indeed come to an end with the fall of Constantinople, but not at the hands of the Turks—rather, at the hands of the Ottomans. And the subjects of Constantine Palaiologos were Rhomaioi; that is how they identified themselves.
Now, when we speak today of “Ottoman Greeks in the late Ottoman Empire”, we simply mean the Greek-speaking Christian subjects of the Ottoman Empire who later, with the emergence of nationalism, began calling themselves “Greeks”. It’s as simple as that.
I think that even if you look at it from a nationalist perspective, “Ottoman Greeks” works in favour of the Greek narrative. It makes it clear that Ottoman is not an ethnicity, but a political status. After all, the Turks were an ethnological minority. More than 50 peoples are recorded, and it simply changed from Romania with Christianity into the Ottoman Empire with Islam. We did not lose to the Turks when Constantinople fell. It was a very slow change of regime and a complicated matter. Of course, there were battles that determined control of certain areas, but the Turks did something clever. They did not change the system! Their form of government was, after all, nomadic and tribal, and it could not be used to govern the millions of Romans, Armenians, and so on in Anatolia. Until 1922, the ethnological characteristics of old Rome were obvious everywhere. The coastal areas as far as Antioch were inhabited by Romans, and Trebizond still exercised political and aristocratic control within Turkey — even before the Kingdom fell. The same goes for the Phanariots.
Turkey time, which I think is the same.
For Turkey time, it says Greenwich +3. I think we’re +2, but now with daylight saving time, I don’t know…
On the one hand, English terms usually reflect the “official” reality—for example, citizenship. On the other hand, English itself does not have clear endings to distinguish whether something is an adjective, a noun, and so on. So a word-for-word translation may appear to mean “Ottoman Greek”, while the actual meaning may be “a Greek from a Turkish-ruled region”, “under Turkish rule”, and so on.
Basically, there was a national identity in Romània, but it was not a Greek one, rather a Roman one, from at least the 5th century onwards—at least for the overwhelming majority of Greek speakers. Even so, in the late Romània and for a short time after the Fall of Constantinople, there were some intellectuals who flirted with a Greek identity, although those who called themselves (and were called by Muslims) “Romans” were referred to by Westerners and Slavs as “Graeci”. “Greeks” began to spread again as a self-designation among the Romans/Romioi (as well as among some attached Albanians and Vlachs) during the Modern Greek Enlightenment in the 18th century, and became established after the triumph of the Greek War of Independence and the founding of the modern Greek state. Even so, “Romios” did not disappear immediately, and for a while the two words were synonyms. Even more than a hundred years later, we still hear in the same song both “five Greeks in Hades” and “in the Romioi song”.
It seems that Turkey doesn’t observe daylight saving time, so Greek summer time coincides with Turkey time.
It was very interesting. It was a presentation of the archives of Kamaradou and Psachou, whose work I was unaware of, as well as some conclusions at the end. Modal notation on the stave was also discussed.
Αυτό το νήμα έκλεισε αυτόματα μετά από 365 ημέρες. Δεν επιτρέπονται πια καινούριες απαντήσεις.