Also, the logic of transposition is entirely different in an instrument where each note has a defined position (e.g. piano or flute), and different again in a fretted, long-necked lute-like instrument (e.g. the CAGED system on the guitar). And, of course, it is even more different in a folk or traditional instrument, where mainly open positions are played using an understanding of scale degrees rather than notes/frequencies, as Alexandros describes it.
As soon as I read these two parts of the exchange, I thought of something very similar to what I read immediately afterwards:
In my view, someone who starts this way will develop a misleading picture of the instrument’s geography:
First, as a complete beginner and with no preconceptions, they will spend however long it takes learning that “to begin with, we have these 12 keys”, as the basis for anything else they learn afterwards.
Then, once they have progressed, they will start to see that some of those 12—a small proportion of them, practically an exception—allow for a different use of the instrument from all the rest (with open strings and so on).
But that is precisely the instrument’s primary use, not the exceptional one! This is the three-course bouzouki. Everything else, including keys beyond those most commonly called for, is additional supplementary knowledge.
As for your experience, Babis, practising scales and keys, I assume you did not start with that. I venture to suppose that you were already playing bouzouki by then.
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You lot make some good points, but I got stressed just reading them, and they fried my brain too. Kudos to everyone for sharing your knowledge.
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These 23 words, all told, seem to me to express with disarming honesty the fact that, collectively, we have failed (at least so far…) in whatever effort was started with this thread. Well done on our knowledge, yes, but what good is it if we don’t know how to use it effectively…
Great, what do we need to explain? I’m not trolling, I’m genuinely asking.
I “played” the rebetika I loved on the bouzouki by myself for around 8–9–10 years. My grievance at the time was that I wasn’t making any further technical progress and that I didn’t have the sound of a proper bouzouki player, although I did have, so to speak, a rebetobouzouko style of playing.
So I went to a teacher, and we started from zero… as though I didn’t know anything… As well as technical exercises and songs, he showed me all the major scales and had me work on the fretboard by playing the same exercise in every key, properly, from sheet music.
What this did to unlock the fretboard of the three-course bouzouki was a godsend: not only could I play absolutely everything I knew in any key, regardless of the dromos, but I could do it without thinking and with almost no mistakes…
(This reflex has weakened over the years, and since I no longer practise, unfortunately, I want to get back to it…)
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Ask “V”, my dear Nikolas, not me…
This breakthrough you mention, how long did it take you? Do you think the same would have happened with any teacher, or was it the particular teacher’s method?
Although I no longer have the time to practise as I used to, my daily routine before going to the orchestra is to slowly work through scales and arpeggios in at least 6–7 keys, one etude depending on the repertoire I need, and one or two Bach movements. I don’t think there are many days when I deviate from this routine. After that, I either practise orchestral repertoire, go to rehearsal, or rest if I have a concert that evening. I’ve done this throughout my adult life, and it’s what the job and this type of music require.
What I notice is that my practice on the lavta/lyra is completely different. I never warm up, I never play anything technical, and I never settle into a practice routine. I simply learn either whatever inspires me or whatever I need. I don’t know why my learning tools are completely different: Have I played so many scales that my brain has become saturated, or do I not need them to the same extent? Does the music itself not require it? Or am I simply approaching makam with the enthusiasm of an amateur, without setting myself a technical benchmark?
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I don’t think explaining it to me would be worth your while, so I don’t want to put you through it. Thanks anyway, Niko.
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I started at the age of 18, struggling with a four-string bouzouki. I had liked the bouzouki since I was about 10, but my dad wouldn’t send me for lessons. Later, I bought a four-string bouzouki, went to a teacher, and he asked me:
“Do you want to play, or do you want to learn properly using sheet music?”
Naturally, at 18, I told him I wanted to play. Perhaps if I had been younger, I would have learnt the basics properly and thoroughly, but…
For quite a few years, the instrument remained in the cupboard because I lacked anyone to play music with. In 2012, I had an accident and severed all the fingers on my left hand except my thumb. In 2021, I gave away the four-string bouzouki, got a three-string one, and started again from scratch. I went to a teacher, but things didn’t work out between us.
My case is unusual because of the limited movement in my fingers, and I don’t think anyone will be able to help me, which is why I’m trying to teach myself.
That is also why I admire your knowledge of music.
Sorry for taking the topic off topic. If the moderators think it appropriate, they can delete my message.
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@Vaggelis76 It’s such a shame that accidents like this happen… Let’s start with the “good” news: your picking hand, which is irreplaceable, wasn’t affected. I imagine you’re familiar with the outstanding player Kostas Papapanagiotou:
I’m thinking that open playing, as well as certain tunings, might help you, in the sense that you generally only need two or three fingerings on each string to play an octave.
@icetelli Babis, I think I understand which teacher you’re talking about. I respect and appreciate him, and I’ve seen some amazing results among his students. I’m not saying that scales aren’t helpful or useful—quite the opposite. However, I believe it’s closer to the logic of the bouzouki and its repertoire to have certain basic tonalities (each with its own characteristics), together with an understanding of how to transpose them across the fretboard. You can also start practising what you mentioned alongside that, but I don’t consider it the first priority on this particular instrument.
And this is my objection to this particular book: it doesn’t give you a sense of the bouzouki as an instrument. At the very least, the melodic minor should have been left out, and there should have been at least some brief mention of four- and five-string bouzoukis and dromoi.
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In my humble opinion, practising with the instrument will make you a better player, not theory.
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The scales weren’t “studied” over a short period of time… The whole thing must have taken 3–4 years, alongside all the other material, with systematic study.
I don’t know whether the same thing would have happened with any teacher, but I’d guess so, if the method and approach were similar.
My friend Alk, could this also have something to do with the non-equal-tempered nature of the repertoire? Likewise, if you played alla turca or traditional music on the violin at a concert, I don’t think you’d need major scales in various keys for a warm-up; you’d perhaps do something more “Eastern”.
(Generally speaking, though, I wasn’t referring to warming up, but to practising. For a warm-up, I play a very reliable instrumental piece, simply and without taking any risks… )
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Me, an amateur when it comes to aiming and skills, Down in Vávoula’s hoooole… 