Discussion of the entry: Κοχλαράκιας – κοχλάρι

Rebetiko Glossary Discussion about the Rebetiko Glossary
41

Of course, with Artificial Intelligence, nothing was actually “understood”; it simply presents, with varying degrees of success, whatever is written on the internet. If we write 1,000 times that “κοχλαράκιας” means, for example, “snail”, from “κοχλίας”, etc., the AI may soon “say” it too.

The AI’s answer also indirectly associates the noun “κοχλιάριον” with the verb “κοχλάζω”. However, from what I can see here, the verb’s original form is “καχλάζω”, so this indirect association is probably mistaken.

1 Like
42

Exactly, and on top of that it improvises a little.

What we learn here is what we already knew: that some people assume (myself included!) that the word has something to do with the spoon used by the heroin-addicted junkie who injects.’

Whether the assumption holds water or not, whether there are other assumptions, and which one is ultimately correct, is something artificial intelligence could not know. And we can predict that in advance, so we’d better not waste it.

Personally, I use it for questions where I know the answer has been given, but I don’t know where to look for it — for example, for a particular law.

2 Likes
43

If, however, we’re talking about the “free” AI that pops up uninvited in the search engine, it’s quite capable of ruining your life with the answers it gives. From experience, there have been quite a few cases (in legal matters, but also in other areas) where it “pops up” and gives answers like the clueless person in the group who pretends to know everything.

I have no experience with higher-quality AI and can’t comment, but I think that the more its “level” rises, the greater the need will be for a higher level of human oversight of its answers; in other words, the level of error will probably be proportional to the level of the AI and the seriousness of the reasons for using it.

2 Likes
44

I’m no great expert, but I get by with ChatGPT — the no-sign-up version. It’s a bit of a pain: it wants you to look here as well as there (it doesn’t understand “look everywhere”, nor does it understand that sometimes a search has finished, even if it found nothing), but it doesn’t come out with the outrageous nonsense it was spouting about a year ago. Confusing κοχλιάριον with κοχλάζω etymologically is forgivable. In its early days, it used to spout colossal amounts of rubbish.

45

I dropped by solely to give you a piece of information from the very dark past (which the state is doing everything in its power to keep dark) of Greek-speaking Attica, and especially of the nahiye of Athens. My great-grandfather’s grandfather called the “spoon” a “kochlári”, because he found it very difficult to say “kochliári”, as that was completely foreign to his dialect (Old Athenian). For example, he said “ekklisá” rather than “ekklisiá”, and “fovitsáris” rather than “fovitsiáris”. It is worth mentioning here that in most cases he used the “-éa” ending. For example:

Soutsea = Fig tree

Sioukam inea = Mulberry tree

Kochlarea = Tablespoon

Arabosoutsea = Prickly pear

Gkonea = Corner

Hellesponteas (and Hellespontias) = Graigos (wind)

Thratsea = Ravine

Plateа = Square

Folea = Nest

Spilea = Cave

And a great many other such examples.

Or, more rarely, the “-ía” ending:

Tsoulia = Belly

Paidia = Children

And others like these.

Words ending in “-ia” did not have the “-ia” inserted improperly:

Kloú-vi-a = Kloú-via

Ta-ar-lá-tsi-a = Ta-li-rá-kia

Ví-li-a = Ví-lia

Ní-li-os = Í-li-os

Ni-á-des = Nies (young women)

Nevertheless, there were also, albeit rarely, words with an improperly used “-ía”, “-ia”, “-io” and “-ie”, such as:

Alismoniá = Lismoniá

Chorisiá = Separation

Katzoulieris = Secretary

Atheniotis (although the term “Athenian” was used more often) = Athenian

And some place names, mainly Arvanitika, such as:

Barbaliaki

Domoliaki

Spiliazeza

Loulie Kouki

etc.

I hope I have been of some help. Thank you for listening to me.

46

How does the state keep this particular past of Greek-speaking Attica so dark, and, if you know, for what reason? Would you care to explain this to us somehow, dear Theodoros Kallimacheas?

P.S. And the nahiye of Athens was not the only place in Attica where Greek, rather than Arvanitika, was spoken; in Megara, too, they spoke Greek.

47

He doesn’t simply say Greek. He says the Athenian dialect. Like Akoukatos, the town crier in one of Papadiamantis’s stories, who was given that name because they found it very funny that he spoke Athenian and said, „Did you hear that, lads?“

I don’t know whether there is some conspiracy of silence, particularly one inspired by the state, but it certainly isn’t widely known that Athens once had its own dialect. Naturally, it disappeared two or three generations after the enormous influx of people caused by Athens being designated as the capital.

Even so, dropping the -i- in forms such as koritsa and kerasa, where it precedes a sibilant, is one linguistic phenomenon, while what happens in kochliari is another.

48

To be precise:

It was not the time for conversation then. […] Otherwise he would have told me many stories: how old Akoukatos, in days gone by, had acquired this surname, because when he worked as an auctioneer at auctions, he would often repeat questioningly to the crowd, “Did you hear it, children?”, since he came from Athens, where it was pronounced that way instead of akousate;

(The Rosy Shores)

The old Athenian dialect is said to have survived, just barely, until the beginning of the 20th century. I would be surprised if any of its peculiar expressions had made their way into Modern Greek. I’m taking a look at the main characteristics of the dialect (phonological, grammatical, etc.) here (an article by N. Pantelidis on N. Sarantakos’s website).

@Theodoros_Kallimache, should I assume that one of your intermediate ancestors, who lived at the same time as that distant grandfather, kept notes on the grandfather’s speech?

In any case, thank you for this particularly interesting contribution (at least for me).

49

It’s fascinating how, when it comes to these foreign plants, everyone attributes an origin to them from wherever they please! They called it “fig from Arabia”; we call it “fig from Francia”. It’s actually from America, and its fruit bears not the slightest resemblance to a fig.

1 Like
50

Aegina had its own dialect too, and I imagine it must have been very close to that of Athens. I experienced the Aeginetan pronunciation as a child: in Aegina too, tsitakism was pronounced strongly, as was the retention of hiatus in word endings—for example, “πάμε για δουλεία” (“let’s go to work”). In any case, no one in the “Chora” had retained any of this; they had consciously abandoned it. You would hear it only in remote villages, for example from the “Pacheia Rachitissa”, an elderly woman from Pacheia Rachi, a village in the mountainous interior of the island.

51

Yes, they’re related—both those of southern Euboea and those of Megara.

1 Like
52

Nor does the plant bear any resemblance whatsoever to the fig tree!

53

Although «somehow» sounds ironic (and I do not understand why, since you are the winner). I will explain it to you as briefly as possible, because it is a huge subject, involving exactly 67 years of battles with many dead on both sides.

In what I am about to set out, there are 2 opposing sides: the Atheniotes and the Fertoi. The Atheniotes were divided into 4 groups:

1. Kastrinoi. These were divided into: a) Greek-speaking Atheniotes, accounting for more than 75% (of the Kastrinoi), b) Greek-speaking Arvanites (mainly the Gkagkaroi*) and c) Albanian-speaking Arvanites (mainly in Plaka).

2. Xotarides. These were divided into: a) Greek-speaking Atheniotes (in almost all the villages around Athens (Drakos (Pereas), Sepeti, Raveisi, Ramnes, Bithoulas, Zofrea (Nozea), Panakota, Ampelokipi, Kakouri(!)anoi, etc.), b) Greek-speaking Arvanites (Kara Memet, Drakos (Pereas), Keratzini and generally the villages of Agrimeio), c) Albanian-speaking Arvanites (Kara Memet, Kamarisa of Athens, etc.) and d) Albanian-speaking Atheniotes (Dragoumanou, etc.)

3. Other Atticans. These were divided into: a) Albanian-speaking Atticans (mainly in Marousi, Menidi, Koukouvounes, Kifisia, etc.), in a very large proportion, b) Albanian-speaking Arvanites (mainly in Berchami, Spata, Liosia, Liopesi, Keratea, Koropi, Kouvaras, etc.), c) Greek-speaking Atticans (Pikermi, Leontari, Kifisia, Varibobi, etc.) and d) Greek-speaking Arvanites (Bei Sefer, Varibobi, etc.).

4. Others. These were divided into: a) pre-Revolution Vlachs and Sarakatsani (Trel(i)otes), who had their winter pastures within the nahiye of Athens, b) pre-Revolution Kiouledes (mainly Negroes), c) pre-Revolution Mustaminides (very few).

The derisive name for all of them was «Gkagkaroi».

The Fertoi, meanwhile, were divided into:

1. Greeks from abroad, islanders or otherwise, mainly from Thrace (the largest group of all), Epirus and Macedonia. They were mainly wealthy and highly influential. This group was larger in population than the next one at least until 1850. Their derisive name was «Bourtzovlachoi».

2. Mainland Greeks from within the country, from the Morea and the rest of Livadeia (Central Greece), who were mainly poor. Their derisive name was «Karavlachoi».

3. Greek islanders from within the country. Their derisive name was «Trat arides».

4. Bavarians. Mainly Bavarians, but not exclusively. Their derisive name was «Koutofrangoi», but because everyone was afraid of them, they were usually called «Bavarezes».

*: The Gkagkaroi were the most capable and most rebellious Albanian stradioti of the Venetians. After the Third Venetian–Ottoman War (1540), they were discharged by the Venetians and remained Vagarii (= stradioti without military pay). Thus they were left in Nafplio, where a generation later they rebelled. The Turks therefore decided to exile them and, through a peaceful ruse between 1571~1579, sent them throughout the Attica basin (mainly to Athens, Marousi, etc., but also outside it (mainly to Spata, etc.)). Fierce as they were, they formed a class of their own; one might say that they positioned themselves between the Athenian aristocrats and the householders. In time they changed language, but their surnames betrayed them (e.g. Liapis).

Here, then, is the chronology in brief:

05/1832: The Regency orders the architects Stamatis Kleanthis and Eduard Schaubert to draw up a new plan for the city of Athens, based on the work they had undertaken voluntarily up to that point.

12/1832: The architects Stamatis Kleanthis and Eduard Schaubert submit the new plan for the city of Athens. This plan encroaches on the property of the locals, both Greek-speaking and Albanian-speaking, exploiting the fact that the Atticans had borne one of the heaviest burdens of the war, with more than 25% of their population dead (which is why you rarely encounter not only genuine Athenians, but Atticans in general).

25/01/1833: Otto arrives in Nafplio.

03/06/1833: The Atheniotes, aware of the Regency’s and the wealthy Greeks’ (mainly those from abroad (Bourtzovlachoi)) plans to move the capital of Greece to Athens, as well as of Kleanthis and Schaubert’s unacceptable plans, send a letter in which they ask (I would say flatter) the Regency to agree to make Athens the capital (as if it had any other plans), while also demanding fair compensation. There are 7 relevant articles which need not be mentioned. In brief, the Atheniotes reasoned as follows: if we are to become the capital, something we do not want, then, if we are fully compensated, it might be worth becoming the capital, because our houses and shops will then be rebuilt. Thus they falsely declare everything to be in ruins, since the committee, almost 4 months later, would find many still standing (≈600), or at least repaired (Archaeological Bulletin, 1929).

29/06/1833: The plan for the new city of Athens by the architects Stamatis Kleanthis and Eduard Schaubert is approved, with only minor modifications.

07/1833: Implementation of the plan for the new city of Athens by the architects Stamatis Kleanthis and Eduard Schaubert begins, without any delay. The marking out of the planned roads and squares therefore begins, along with the identification and assessment of the houses and plots affected by the new street plan. Only then do the inhabitants realise what damage they will suffer, especially with winter approaching. Riots break out in Athens. (Travlos).

08/1833: The riots cease and negotiations begin between the government and the Athenian senate.

30/08/1833: An agreement is signed by both sides (the Committee and the Athenian Senate), recording for each plot its area, wells, pits, ovens, etc., as well as all sound buildings within the plot (houses, etc.). Partly ruined buildings are excluded (they will not be counted as buildings), as is unbuilt construction material, which will be given to the owners (as building material). Finally, it is stated that most householders were questioned (with a gun held to their heads) and all replied: «We willingly grant our houses to our King, …»

15/10/1833: The government Committee, together with the Athenian committee, ratify the measurements and compensation for each affected inhabitant (Archaeological Bulletin, 1929).

16/10/1833: The Athenian Senate ratifies the measurements and compensation for each affected inhabitant (Archaeological Bulletin).

11/1833: Implementation of the plan for the new city of Athens by the architects Stamatis Kleanthis and Eduard Schaubert is rejected.

10/01/1834: The government prepares to enter into an undeclared war with the Atheniotes and, as a first step, abolishes the institution of the municipal elders (Government Gazette), in order to weaken the cohesion of the Atheniotes.

18/09/1834: The Regency signs the Decree transferring the capital from Nafplio to Athens (Government Gazette). On the same day, the new plan for the new city of Athens by the Saxon Leo von Klenze is also approved; it is considerably more moderate than the previous one. This is also the government’s last concession.

10/1834: The military units and administrative authorities arrive, and the expropriations begin. It is only to be expected that a second round of riots will also begin among the Atheniotes; this one is particularly bloody.

11/1834: The day of Otto’s arrival approaches. The Atheniotes unilaterally announce a ceasefire, hoping for some agreement upon the King’s arrival.

11/1834 (or 02/1835)~07/1835: The wall of Hadji Ali Haseki is demolished. It had been built with great effort by the Athenians only in 1778, although it had suffered serious damage in 1826. Beyond its practical significance (nearby building material for various nearby public buildings), the demolition of the wall also has symbolic significance.

01/12/1834: Otto arrives in Athens.

01/1835: The Regency has no intention of making any further concessions; the expropriations continue, while the Atheniotes find themselves living in tents through the winter and take up arms again, beginning a third round of riots. With the help of Greek soldiers, the Bavarians drive the Atheniotes into the mountains. The Atheniotes are trapped in towers and burned alive. Those who survive are arrested, stripped and imprisoned in appalling conditions, while their families are driven from their homes, resulting in their complete impoverishment and social exclusion by the Fertoi. The Atheniotes gather in relatives’ houses, mainly in Psyrri and Voreas. Koutsavakism begins, and their suffering is recorded in their moumourika songs (the forerunner of rebetiko). The painting «Der Widerstand von vierzig griechischen Rebellen» dates from this period in Athens, not from Thebes in 1833 as it was later attributed, in order to conceal the state crimes against the indigenous population.

11/01/1835: The urbanisation of Piraeus also begins, with the expropriation of fields, so that the village of Pereas (also known as Drakos) can become a city and the country’s principal port. The relevant Government Gazette notice (Government Gazette) was posted in all the municipalities of Attica, rather than in all the municipalities of the kingdom, so that the buyers would mainly be Atticans, thereby placating the Athenians, who had begun to commit indiscriminate violence against people from the provinces. On the other hand, however, this decree promised the Chians a subsequent decree with particularly favourable terms for purchasing land in Piraeus.

27/02/1835: The government expropriates plots in Piraeus and grants them to Chians on extremely favourable terms (Government Gazette).

1838~1880: This period is characterised by numerous murders, committed by both sides. The Atheniotes rob and kill the Fertoi, while the army and police kill the Atheniotes and their children and rape their women. In May 1844, the Athenians comprised less than 1/3 of the population of the then municipality of Athens.

Incidents (battles and diplomacy):

1838 Fertoi victory

1839 Atheniotes victory

1840 Fertoi victory

1844 Fertoi victory

1845 Atheniotes victory

1846: Atheniotes victory

1847: Fertoi victory

1850: Atheniotes victory

1853: Fertoi victory

1851: Fertoi victory.

1853: Fertoi victory.

1854: Atheniotes victory.

1957: Atheniotes victory.

1857: Fertoi victory.

1862: Atheniotes victory.

1864: Atheniotes’ civil war through a police ruse.

1865: Atheniotes victory.

1866: Fertoi victory.

1869: Fertoi victory.

1870: Atheniotes victory.

1874: Atheniotes victory.

1879: Fertoi victory.

1880: Fertoi victory.

1895: Atheniotes victory

1895: Atheniotes victory

1899: Fertoi victory; Athenian koutsavakism dies along with the Atheniotes and Fertoi koutsavakism begins, hence the transition from the foustanella of the old μάγκας (rebetis, call him what you like) to the tailcoat (a symbol of the Bourtzovlachoi), shortly after 1880.

In 1921, the Athenian arms are not honoured. Between 1922~1980, the old cemeteries are emptied of the bones of the heroic ancestors who truly liberated Greece. And they are thrown into rubbish tips! Everyone was honoured except the Athenians, our disgraceful association said almost 80 years later. In 2021, even non-existent people (not to mention places) were honoured, when in the records of the Revolution you would be hard-pressed to find 1 in 1,000 revolutionaries. I shall finish with the words of Makriyannis, whose army consisted of Atheniotes and a few Thebans (Thebaians) and who, although not an Atheniote, defended our just demands more than anyone else: «What sort of freedom you are supposedly preparing to give us, we can see! The land which we liberated through our struggles and our blood, you give to your comrades, and they buy it—the very people who made us suffer while we were being killed. They enjoy it; they buy the land, wild and cultivated, for a groschen an acre, and so do all those who are your flatterers and informers. You seek to impale us.»

2 Likes
54

Aegina, Antikythera, Velopoula, the Diaporoi Islands, Megarida (Megala Dervenia, Megalodervenochoria), Karavi, Krommyonia, Kythera, Methana, Poros, Salamis, Velvina (Agios Georgios), Spetses, Stavronisi, Troizinia, Hydra, Falkonera, Chytra and Oropia belong administratively to Attica, but they are NOT TRADITIONAL ATTICA. If you define them as Attica, then include Milos as well, which became part of Attica in the 1940s.

By contrast, Drymos (Mikra Dervenia, Dervenochoria) and Makronisos ARE TRADITIONAL ATTICA, but today the former belongs to Boeotia and the latter to the Cyclades.

Some of these speak Old Athenian, such as Aegina, Megara (the town), Ampelakia (of Salamis) and Oropos (the town), but I am not examining that. Nor did I say or imply that only Athenians speak Greek. There are also places outside the nahiye where Athenian was spoken, such as Kifisia (Kivisea) and north-west of Viltani, as well as towards Passades. But I limited myself solely to the nahiye of Athens.

2 Likes
55

A few years ago, a document was found somewhere abroad showing that our grandparents had donated their fields, between what are now Stadiou and Panepistimiou Streets, to the state. The Association of Athenians persuaded the then-mayor, Kaminis, to outbid others so that the document could be returned to Athens, which is what happened. I wanted to see this document, in case I could recognise, among the others, the signature of my great-great-great-grandfather. When I submitted a request to the Municipality of Athens, during Bakoyannis’s term as mayor, asking where it was on display, not only did I receive no answer, but the document also vanished as if by magic. I’m not saying that we might not have donated the land and that my grandfather lied to me when he said it had been taken from us by force. But doesn’t it seem rather suspicious to you that this piece of evidence, which was a source of pride for Athens and had been repatriated at such great expense, should simply disappear?

56

It may be suspicious. Then again, they may simply not know where they put it. There’s no need to attribute to malice anything that can be explained by mere stupidity.

In any case, thank you for all this information about subjects I, at least, had genuinely never heard of. They fascinate me because apparently part of my ancestry is “old-Athenian” too. Not that I was able to follow all the details, of course, but I can certainly see that you’ve thoroughly explored the subject — well done!

However, when it comes to the word “kochlari” (κοχλάρι), I don’t think we’re any wiser.

57

Wise words, drawn from life itself.

I think only “tsoulao”.

58

It could be. According to the article I linked above, both the change υ > ου and the affrication of κ (which together turn κυλώ into τσουλώ) are features of the dialect.

But only that one? In the ΛΚΝΕ, I read a different explanation:

*τσυλώ ( [i > u] under the influence of [l] ) < κυλώ with a change to [ > ts] before [i]

In other words, the sound [i], regardless of whether it originated from an ancient upsilon, changed to [u] for other reasons, without the word having passed through the particular dialect, instead following the standard trajectory from Ancient Greek to Modern Standard Greek. (I’m putting it somewhat oversimplistically…)

59

Ah, now I see that you have it in mind, Theodore.

1 Like
60

What I have gathered so far is that such a word is unattested in any synchronic sources.
The vernacular forms are: kochliári (κοχλιάρι)/chouliári (χουλιάρι)

However, in our glossary, we have had the equation kochlári (κοχλάρι) = koutáli (κουτάλι) (“spoon”) for years now…